Saul Rosenthal, PhD

HEALTH PSYCHOLOGIST

As part of this blog, I’m publishing the transcripts from my podcast. I hope you find them a useful adjunct to the show. Please listen, leave comments, and rate it on iTunes, Spotify, Google, or wherever you found it!

On the first episode of my podcast, I talked with my colleague Dr. Inna Khazan. She is an expert on integrating mindfulness with biofeedback, psychotherapy, and everyday life. I urge you to read any of her many articles and books.

Link to Show: Episode 1: Managing Stress and Uncertainty
Guest: Dr. Inna Khazan
Link of interest: Psychology Today Articles

Saul Rosenthal: Welcome to the premier episode of Life in the Time of Corona, a podcast exploring the many ways to stay healthy and sane in these strange times. I’m Dr. Saul Rosenthal, a developmental and clinical health psychologist. Staying healthy during the COVID-19 pandemic is about more than the virus. We are all suddenly cut off from our normal lives, friendships, school, work, religious worship, even shopping and entertainment have all transformed overnight. In this podcast, I’ll talk with experts to get their perspectives on living our best lives in these difficult circumstances. We’ll talk about the professional advice and some of their personal experiences.

I’m really fortunate today to welcome Dr. Inna Khazan to the podcast. Dr. Khazan is an expert in mindfulness and biofeedback focusing on health psychology and optimal performance. In addition to her private practice, she is a faculty member of Harvard Medical School, speaks and teaches internationally and consults with corporations and organizations that vary from the Stuttgart Opera and Ballet Company to the U.S. Army Special Forces. She’s on the boards of directors for many professional organizations, and is the author of numerous articles including some recent pieces for psychologytoday.com about adapting to the new normal. I’ll link to those in the show notes. She also has written two excellent books about biofeedback and mindfulness. The clinical handbook of biofeedback, a step-by-step guide for training and practice with mindfulness and biofeedback and mindfulness in everyday life, practical solutions for improving your health and performance. Inna, welcome to the premier episode of Life in the Time of Corona.

Inna Khazan: Thank you so much for having me Saul. It’s a pleasure.

Saul Rosenthal: So right now, the U.S. death toll just went over 10,000 and here in Massachusetts, we may be at the start of the surge of cases that are expected to peak in a week or so. We’re under a stay-at-home advisory and the City of Boston is starting a curfew tonight at 9:00. So needless to say, all of our lives have turned upside down. What are some of the ways that the coronavirus is affecting your life?

Inna Khazan: Well, I’m no longer seeing people in person as professionally and, well and personally as well. That’s probably the biggest change and the most difficult one, uh, moving my practice online and, you know, figuring out ways to stay in touch with friends and family, uh, not in person.

Saul Rosenthal: And what’s it been like for the family?

Inna Khazan: The kids have had to adjust to having some sort of schedule at, at home. They’re quite pleased not to be at school. The weather is getting nicer so that’s certainly, you know, a good thing and we’re fortunate enough to have a yard. So they have a place, you know, to run around and get some of their energy out, but they do have some school assignments and, uh, they’re having a little bit of trouble adjusting to the fact that they have to do those without actually being in school. It’s a work in progress.

Saul Rosenthal: So I guess it’s sort of paralleling all of our struggles that we’re all adjusting to these new situations.

Inna Khazan: Exactly.

Saul Rosenthal: So obviously everything is different and there’s a lot of change and uncertainty. What is it about a situation like this that really drives up our stress levels?

Inna Khazan: The unfamiliarity of it and the uncertainty of it. We deal with uncertainties all the time in our daily lives, uh, but those are familiar uncertainties. You know, we, on a rational level fully recognize that, you know, when we get into a car, you know, there we’re taking some risk and it’s not entirely certain what’s going to happen and whether we’re going to arrive home in one piece, but we tend not to think about it very much because it is something that we’re used to, just the kind of uncertainty we’re used to. Um, this is a very different kind of uncertainty. Uh, it’s new, it’s unfamiliar and because of that, it is that much more scary. Even with uncertainty of something like the flu which the coronavirus has been compared to in all sorts of ways recently, but, you know, the flu happens every year, and most of us don’t spend a lot of time thinking about it, even though it does affect a lot of people in very negative ways, but it is something that we’re used to. The coronavirus is not something we’re used to. We do not know what we’re dealing with and the uncertainty is not one that, uh, we are able to recognize and integrate into our daily lives.

Saul Rosenthal: So risks that we’re used to, we don’t fear as much even though they’re risky and it’s this –

Inna Khazan: Mm hmm.

Saul Rosenthal: – thing that we’re not, we just don’t know enough about it.

Inna Khazan: Exactly.

Saul Rosenthal: And, and from what you’re hearing from your clients, what are some of the biggest challenges they’re dealing with?

Inna Khazan: In the, very, very similar challenges to, you know, what you and I probably are dealing with in moving their work online or losing their jobs because they’re not the kinds of jobs that can be moved online. So that is incredibly stressful for a lot of people. Uh, figuring out how to keep their kids safe, healthy and entertained. You know, if they’re people working from home, how to, at the same time also take care of children especially if they’re young children. That is an extremely difficult, um, challenge to overcome for a lot of people, um, and then even, like, daily things like, you know, grocery shopping or, you know, running out, you know, to get something if you’re missing from the recipe is suddenly a big deal. It’s, it’s suddenly a challenge whereas in the past it was not something that we would have to think about. Uh, so on a daily basis, we encounter these, uh, challenges ranging from really big ones to small ones that are new and unfamiliar.

Saul Rosenthal: Yeah, we found that even things like you’re saying, groceries we sort of have to think 3 or 4 days ahead of where we used to try to think. Um, so it’s, it’s all this stress and new, new ways to do things.

Inna Khazan: Mm hmm.

Saul Rosenthal: So with all of this stress, can you, can you talk a little bit about what the effects of chronic stress are on us, um, physically, emotionally and socially.

Inna Khazan: Absolutely. Um, so one, one distinction I would like to make is distinction between acute stress and chronic stress. Uh, our bodies, our minds are made for dealing with acute stressors. Stressors that come our way that we deal with and then we’re able to move on. That is okay. That kind of stress does not, uh, impact our health. It does not damage our wellbeing long term. Uh, chronic stress does become problematic, whether the stress is in itself an external stress is just never ending, or because our response to the stressors that happen is such that we’re not able to recover and we’re not able to let go of the stressors that come along, and right now both of those are happening to a lot of people. Uh, on the one hand the situation that’s happening externally is one that we don’t know when it’s going to end, and presents with continued stressors in many dimensions and then on the other hand, a lot of people are having trouble letting go, even as they’re meeting each individual stressor throughout the day, uh, it’s difficult to let go. It’s difficult to recover. It’s difficult not to continue getting engaged and getting stuck. You know, for example, continuously searching out information online, um, in social media, you know, trying to figure out what’s going to happen. Trying to figure out how this is going to affect us in the long term, etc. Trying to find answers to questions that really just do not have answers right now. So when we get stuck in difficult thoughts, feelings and situations without being able to recover, our bodies do experience effects of prolonged stress, you know, our hearts may need to, uh, work a bit harder than they typically do, your gastrointestinal system may be having trouble regulating itself. You know, breathing may be dysregulated. Uh, we may develop physiological symptoms that are a response to stress such as, you know, pain, you know, back pain, headaches, stomach aches, things like that. Um, and then a lot of people just find themselves feeling on edge or keyed up or agitated a lot of the time and find they’re anxious a lot more throughout the day, um, than they had been a few weeks ago. Um, and then if that is not ending, you know, it might create things like having trouble sleeping, um, having trouble, you know, focusing and thinking straight throughout the day, um, and you know, if this goes on long enough, it can have some adverse, long-term health effects as well.

Saul Rosenthal: Yeah and certainly I’m getting, I’m sure like you, a lot of complaints from my clients about trouble sleeping and focusing, things like that and it also, um, is certainly nowhere near the end of what’s going on. So some of these effects that you, you are referring to we may start to experience with the, the effects of chronic stress. Um, can you tell us a little bit about what sort of those longer term effects might be?

Inna Khazan: With long term exposure to stress, the, that does not, um, have a resolution, we’re not recovering properly. Uh, insomnia, for example, may become long term and we know that that has some adverse consequences on health, from things like a higher likelihood of obesity, to heart disease. Uh, same thing with prolonged anxiety, uh, it might eventually have consequences such as heart disease, a greater likelihood of high blood pressure. People might develop pain that becomes more chronic, um, over time.

Saul Rosenthal: Now you obviously do a lot of work in the area of mindfulness, and one of the things you’d said that these two issues, the one that the stress does not end and the other that the response itself to the stress is problematic. It seems to me that mindfulness can be a useful approach to try to differentiate between those two things. So, I’m wondering if you have any thoughts about what people can do.

Inna Khazan: Yeah, so I think that most importantly we can start with differentiating between what we can and cannot control. A lot of the time when we are just stressed, our minds try to find things that are under our control, uh, and unfortunately, our minds automatically are not always very good at being able to tell the difference between what is and is not under our control. You know very often our minds will focus in on things like thoughts and feelings in an attempt to change uncomfortable thoughts and distressing feelings, when in reality, we simply don’t have control over those. You know, think about the last time you tried to stop thinking about something.

Saul Rosenthal: Mm hmm.

Inna Khazan: Or the last time you tried to stop feeling something. You know, how well did that work? Right? I’m willing to bet that for most of the time when we try to, uh, stop thinking or feeling something, those thoughts and feelings just come back at us that much stronger. So our minds are focusing in on things that are not under our control and then spending a lot of time, energy and internal resources on attempts to control something that is not under our control. We inevitably set ourselves up for failure, and then we do not have enough resources, time, energy, uh, basic things like blood glucose left in order to focus on things that actually are under our control which is how do you respond to difficult thoughts and feeling and what do you do in a difficult situation. You know, how do you figure out when it’s safe to go out. You know, how do you figure out how to keep your family safe? You know, how do you figure out how to do grocery shopping? Things like that, um, when we’re spending a lot of time trying to control things that are not under our control, uh, there is simply not enough resources left to figuring out things that would have been under our control otherwise.

Saul Rosenthal: So you’re finding that people are focusing more on a list of things that they can’t control like the spread of virus, spending hours and hours a day, things like that and what you’re suggesting is we, we focus on maybe even just the mundane things like when are you going to go shopping.

Inna Khazan: Absolutely. Uh, thinking about what is under your control. If you find yourself in a difficult situation, here you’re feeling, um, you’re fairly distressed or you find yourself having troubling thoughts, you are, you know, find yourself, you know, digging online and looking for answers, not finding anything. What I suggest is stopping and just asking yourself the question of okay, what is under my control in the situation? What is in my best interests as far as how to respond to this? So if the question going through your mind is, you know, what’s going to happen with this virus? You know, is my family going to be safe? Am I going to be safe? You know, what’s going to happen, you know, with my job. Uh, all these questions that we do not have particularly good answers to, but there are things that are under our control to, to an extent, right? If we’re thinking about how am I going to keep my family safe, it’s helpful to have a flexible plan. How are you going to do grocery shopping? Are you going to wear a mask, uh, when you go out? You know, how, how is that mask going to come about? Is that going to be, you know, something you have stashed away from a few years, you know, from your past construction project? Uh, or are you going to make a, uh, you know, a cloth mask that, you know, there are lots of instructions going around online and, um, be able to protect other people when you go outside. So having some sort of flexible plan that you have control over in response to, you know, difficult thoughts and feelings can be helpful because it actually accomplishes a goal that’s realistic.

Saul Rosenthal: So even if the task may not seem to be as big as stopping the virus, it can still be useful.

Inna Khazan: Exactly. I think it can be extremely useful and then collection of those small, um, actions add up to a really big one, whereas stopping the virus while sitting in your living room is, you know, as, as wonderful as it sounds is just not going to happen.

Saul Rosenthal: Right. So you’re not saying don’t worry about things because obviously there are realistic things to worry about.

Inna Khazan: Yes.

Saul Rosenthal: Like jobs and risk. Um, for example, you know, in my, in my household I’m living with, um, my mother in law who’s in her late 80s and has COPD and, uh, respiratory illness. So there’s real risk there compared to other groups of people.

Inna Khazan: Yeah.

Saul Rosenthal: So what could I do for example, maybe to worry a little bit less about her health?

Inna Khazan: Well, um, as you said, the worry is inevitable. Right? She is an important part of your family. She’s an important part of your life. You are not going to stop worrying about her, uh, and, and she’s part of a group that is, um, on a more concerning if she were to be exposed to the virus. So the worry, the presence of the worry makes sense and there is nothing you can do to make it go away, but when you notice the worry, the question to ask yourself is okay, it’s okay for me to feel this way. That makes sense. What is in my best interest as far as the response? What is under my control? If I suspect you probably already have a plan for, you know, how you might protect your mother in law from exposure, but, you know, if, if not that, it would be a good time to sit down and think about it. Maybe sit down as a whole family and think through, you know, how are you going to run your daily, uh, tasks that minimizes the risk of exposure to your mother in law.

Saul Rosenthal: Yeah, that, that’s what we’re, we are certainly trying to do that. Now, now you obviously you’ve done a lot of work in this area and have developed a model for it. I wonder if you, you could tell us a bit about that.

Inna Khazan: Yeah, so at this point, most people have probably figured out a plan, hopefully a flexible one. A lot of people have an idea of how they’re going to do things and how they’re going to respond. So the difficulty really comes up when people encounter thoughts, feeling that are distressing, uh, that are really troubling and ones that they do not have control over. Uh, so the model I have developed for coping with difficulty thoughts and feelings as a way of giving us a helpful way to respond to those thoughts and feelings without getting stuck in unhelpful efforts to control what is not under our control. So the model goes under the acronym of flare, F-L-A-R-E, where the F stands for feel and it is just a preverbal awareness of the present experience in the moment, what is happening right now. Uh, it is what lets you know that there is some sort of problem calls your attention to the situation.

And then the next step is label, L in flare, and it’s giving a short non-judgmental label to the experience, giving the experience a name. The, this process reverses the pattern of activation in your brain. It actually quiets down the fear response that typically, um, happens when we find ourselves stressed or anxious about something, uh, and increases the activation of the pre-frontal part of the brain which is responsible for helping us regulate our emotions, uh, choose our actions. So an action that is fairly simple to perform, giving a name to our experience produces profound changes, uh, in the underlying function of the brain which then allows us to figure out how to respond to the difficult situation as opposed to going with a unhelpful automatic response. So a, a label might be something like this is unhelpful thinking or I’m experiencing uncertainty or this is tension, this is distress, this is worry, this is anxiety. Something that is brief, nonjudgmental and descriptive, meaning that if you were to tell somebody else what your label is for this experience, they would have a fairly good idea of what you’re talking about.

Now the next step is A, that’s allow, and the idea we do not have control over our thoughts and feelings. We do not have control over the experience the way it’s happening in this moment and attempts to do so wastes our resources. So A stands for it is okay to feel this way, allow yourself to feel the way you feel and allow the thoughts that are happening in the present moment to be there. What this step does is it allows us to disengage from unhelpful efforts to control the uncontrollable which then wastes our resources, right? By allowing to disengage from that struggle, those resources are now available.

For the next step which is R, response. We can now use all those resources in figuring out the best way to respond to the present situation, and one of the first questions to ask yourself when you’re figuring out how to respond is what is under my control. What is in my best interest and how to respond. Often times the only things we can do have to do with creating a more comfortable internal environment for ourselves because practically they’ve already done most things that needed to be done. If not, of course, this may be a good time to address those practical steps.

As far as addressing our own internal experience, when it comes to the response, taking some breaths can be really helpful. Breathing dysregulation is often one of the first, uh, things that happen with anxiety so rather than taking deep breaths which you may have been, um, taught to do or you may think that’s the best possible thing to do. I would actually encourage you to take low and slow breaths instead only because the way we often take deep breaths, especially when my rate is stressed and anxious actually leads to a physiological dysregulation and breathing out too much carbon dioxide which, which then prevents the oxygen that we do have from going to where it needs to go so a low and slow breath is one where you take, shift your breath to the belly, that’s the low part, uh, and then take a normal size inhalation, as if you’re smelling a flower and then slowing down your breathing, particularly extending the exhale, breathing out through pursed lips as if you’re blowing out a candle. So a normal size inhalation allowing the air to reach the very bottom of your lungs and then a long slow complete exhalation as if you’re blowing out a candle. This kind of breathing optimizes your respiratory, uh, physiology. Uh, it allows the intensity of the present experience to become just a little bit, uh, lower. It reduces the potential confusion that’s happening in your brain if there was some breathing dysregulation, if you were actually not getting quite enough oxygen so this will allow you to restore, uh, the physiological balance you need in order to feel calmer and be able to respond to the present situation in a helpful way.

So that’s one way to respond. Of course there are lots and lots of others, um, and if you have some mindfulness training, a brief meditation may be helpful, um, holding something, um, like a smooth stone in your hands and allowing your attention to come to those stones can be also helpful in order to decrease the intensity of distress in a situation like this and very importantly bringing kindness to yourself in that situation and disengaging from self, self-talk of, ugh, you know, here we go. Why are you doing this to yourself and other, you know, mean things that we often say to ourselves when we’re having a hard time. Instead thinking about how might I respond to a friend or somebody that I care very much about who is experiencing similar feelings. What might I say to them? And then actually using those words in that same caring tone for yourself; that will go a long way.

Now the final step in FLARE, E, stands for expand awareness. And that has to do with reducing the narrow focus that we have on a difficult situation and allowing that focus to broaden so that the difficult experience becomes just a part of your awareness, not all of your awareness. Um, when we find ourselves, you know, having difficult thoughts, difficult feelings, it appears that everything is colored by that. You know, if we’re anxious, you know, the whole world just appears to be one big ball of anxiety around us. Everything is just really dark and scary. If we were to take a step back and notice other sensations around us, external and internal, then that anxiety becomes a part of that experience and not all of the experience, um, so practically speaking what this might be is, uh, taking a look at, you know, what do you see in front of you? What can you hear? What can you taste? What can you smell? What can you touch? So using your five senses to expand awareness in that moment and then bringing your attention inside, feeling your breathing, feeling your heartbeat, perhaps you have an itchy nose or maybe your stomach is growing because it’s time for lunch. Just observing those physiological sensations and integrating all of that into your experience, the difficult, the neutral and maybe even the pleasant.

Saul Rosenthal: One of the things that I, I try to do, uh, to remind myself, is to, you know, I wake up every morning and think about the 300 crises that I have to deal with that’s I guess the feeling part but then I, I quickly know myself well enough and the situation well enough that I can label those as what I am calling crises and probably exaggerating to some extent, and sort of allow for that again because I kind of know that that’s who I am and then I sort of think through, okay, well what actually has to happen today so my daughter needs to be scheduled for school. I need to walk the dog. I need to prepare for my, my clients, um, but moving, moving towards sort of a, the, the expanded awareness, one thing that I try to do is remind myself how fortunate I am to be able to have a place that were I’m living and I’m, we’re not too cramped here and that I’m still seeing clients and earning a living and I remind myself of those things and remind myself to feel gratitude about those. I’m wondering if that, that seems to kind of fit into that idea of expanded awareness.

Inna Khazan: Absolutely, and really, really beautifully. When we’re having a hard time, especially when that hard time is not stopping any time soon our minds are evolutionarily predisposed to just be on the lookout for the negative, the scary, the difficult, and it’s really easy to get caught up in that, and that our minds don’t let go and it ju, again it just feels like we’re stuck in this big ball of bad stuff happening. Reminding yourself to take a step back, um, and notice what you’re grateful for and even just what is it you’re appreciating can be really important and I would encourage people to focus specifically on the little things.

Of course it’s great to be, um, you know, helpful, to be grateful or appreciative of your, um, health or your family or your friends of course, and I would at the same time I would also encourage you to be grateful or appreciative of, you know, the sunshine outside, or the extra big hug your child gave you that morning, or the nice thing your client said to you at, at the end of a session, appreciating the work you have been doing. Um, so those things that are fairly small and our minds are, again, evolutionarily predisposed to kinda let go and not focus on because they are not vital to our physical survival and yet those small things we appreciate or are grateful for are actually vital for our emotional, um, survival so making a point to notice those small things that are happening, um, throughout the day, perhaps write, writing them down at the end of the day, you know, maybe keeping a small notebook on your nightstand where at the end of the day you write down three things you have appreciated or have been grateful for of that day. Um, what that does is it actually trains your brain to be more in look out for those positive things, and then your brain is much more likely to notice that and to take in the full level of awareness, not just the negative but also the positives. Those are much more likely to just become a part of your awareness.

Saul Rosenthal: And do you have any thoughts about how we might help each other with this, whether for partners or parents to children?

Inna Khazan: Um, yeah, I think just walking each other through some of those steps, um, you know, maybe, you know, with your partner, talking about well, this is something that seems helpful to me, you know, can we do this together. Uh, if I’m having a hard time could you walk me through this? You know, what’s the F, what’s the L, what’s the A, uh, what’s the R, what’s the E? Um, you can certainly do this with children, even young children will be able to do some version, um, of FLARE, maybe you don’t have name, you know, each step quite in the same way that we talked about just now but you can certainly ask a child all right, what are you feeling in your body right now for F. Um, what might you call those feelings? That’s the label. And it’s, just remind yourself it’s okay to feel this way. Let’s say that together. It’s okay to feel this. For response, uh, whatever may be appropriate for your child. Let’s take three nice slow breaths together. Smelling a flower on the way in, blowing out our candle on the way out and then let, you know, for expanding awareness now tell me what you’re seeing, what you’re hearing, what you smell and what you touch, etc. Um, you can walk a child through that, you know, you can walk your partner through that. You can ask your partner to help you walk through those steps. They are concrete enough that anybody can do it.

Saul Rosenthal: Well, thank you very much. This is certainly something I can talk about all day, um, but we are running out of time. I was wondering if I could just take a few moments to ask you a few quick “one thing” questions.

Inna Khazan: Of course.

Saul Rosenthal: – so just starting with, what is one thing you’re doing to take care of yourself?

Inna Khazan: Uh, good question. Uh, I am doing the best I can to get out, uh, and move, um, because I’m no longer going into the office, you know, I don’t have the little opportunities to move that I used, that I used to have. I used to get out and take the stairs whenever I was, you know, going out to my office or getting out of the parking garage and I’m not doing that anymore. Um, so I, I do the best I can to, um, get out and move. I can’t go to the gym, but I can, you know, go for a walk in a hilly neighborhood where I live and make sure that that becomes part of my new routine and it’s much easier said than done, um, and some days it’s certainly better than others. But that’s my, uh, one of the more important goals I have for myself right now.

Saul Rosenthal: And, and what is one thing that you think has really changed?

Inna Khazan: Internally or externally?

Saul Rosenthal: Either one.

Inna Khazan: Hm. Um, I think what has – uh, the, the obvious, you know, external changes like staying at home more and, you know, being on a video screen, um, a lot more but I think internally what I find changing a lot in me really putting a lot of attention towards changing is, um, kindness, compassion and self-compassion, because things are so difficult right now for so many people and when people are having a hard time, you know, it’s, um, we get snappier, we get more impatient. Um, and I think it’s really important to approach ourselves with kindness when we notice ourselves being snappier and more inpatient and approach our family members with kindness when they are getting snappier and more impatient, you know, uh, my children have gotten to more spats with each other than perhaps they normally do. Um, and even though my initial internal response is ugh, are you at it again, and sometimes that’s exactly what comes out of my mouth, but I do the best I can to take a step back and ask what are you struggling with right now? What’s going on? Because it, they are not being mean to each other because they are mean people. They are having a hard time with something at that moment, um, you know, if my, my husband snaps at me for something I realize it is not because he wants to be mean to me, it’s because something is going on for him and, um, you know, I know my husband and I have had this discussion. He does the same with me. If I snap at him he knows that there is something going for me so we, we do the best we can to approach each other with more kindness and compassion and that goes a very long way in managing the craziness that’s going on right now.

Saul Rosenthal: So trying to be more deliberate about kindness and compassion and how we’re approaching each other.

Inna Khazan: Exactly. Exactly.

Saul Rosenthal: And finally, what is one thing that people should take away from this?

Inna Khazan: Ah. This is a difficult time for everybody. At this point pretty much everybody in the world feels very similar feelings, so even though we are physically more distant and perhaps more physically disconnected, there is a part of us that’s actually very much more connected, um, than we usually are, you know, because we’re all going through the same scary experience. So it is okay to be afraid. It is okay to be uncertain. Uh, it is okay to have a hard time. It does not make us weak, it does not make us incapable, it makes us human and if we allow ourselves to be human, that we’re actually gonna be in a much better shape to figure out how to best respond to it, how to best take care of ourselves and the people that are important to us.

Saul Rosenthal: A lot of insight and practical recommendations for managing our coronavirus stress from Dr. Inna Khazan. This has been the premier episode of Life in the Time of Corona. I hope you found it useful and interesting. You can subscribe to this show at iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Please rate the show and leave comments. Find out more at my web site saulrosenthalphd.com and follow me on Twitter and Instagram at DrSaulRosenthal, that’s d-r-saulrosenthal. Dr. Inna Khazan is a clinical health and performance psychologist in the Boston area. She is also a faculty member at Harvard Medical School, teacher and speaker extraordinaire and author of many articles and two books on mindfulness and biofeedback. You can find her at InnaKhazan.com. Inna, thanks so much for joining us today.

Inna Khazan: Thank you so much for having me. This was a really great important conversation.

Saul Rosenthal: And thank you listeners. I look forward to continuing the conversation on Life in the Time of Corona.

April 14th, 2020

Posted In: Coronavirus, COVID, Stress

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published.